Remember those 3am bullshit sessions in college dorm rooms where you smoked dope and debated Einstein's Theory of Relativity? Welcome to Sunday night's debate between AVN's Mark Kernes and the Internet's favorite shaman, Luke Ford. To paraphrase the immortal Yogi Berra, the similarities between Kernes and Ford are different. Just how different, one would never have had a chance to conclude from by listening to a radio show called "The Spiritual Seeker" hosted by Michael Levine. The show airs on KRLA-AM 1110 between 8 pm and 10. On this one, Kernes and Ford squared off, tentatively, in a debate about God and pornography. God won on a technicality because listeners didn't have much of an opportunity to call in and Kernes got even less time when Levine started calling star witnesses to the stand. Kernes came to the show, obviously armed as an advocate for pornography. Speaking on behalf of Ford, host Levine offered Ford's view as being one where pornography has a "deleterious" affect on both people who perform in adult movies and the industry and the people who watch them. Levine posed a question to Ford that if a single man listening to the show thinks of himself as a spiritual person and goes to a strip club, did Ford have a problem with that. [Levine might as well have posed the other intriguing question about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.] Ford said that every organized religion "of which I'm aware" has a problem with it. "The problem is that sex in every organized, monotheistic religion is to be kept for marriage," Ford said. "What is wrong is that all of those religions condemn it." Levine said he didn't know of any biblical passage that condemns strip clubs, what would be the spiritual basis for doing so. "Religion articulates that we have a choice," Ford said, "that we can act in a Godly-way or we can act in our own way. The Godly-way has some definitions among them in that sex and eroticism is to be saved for marriage; another is that we don't live for our own pleasures. There are higher values than our own satisfactions; that we do not lead selfish lives with all of life as a gift including sexuality." "What in God's name is selfish about a single man going to a strip club?" Levine wanted to know. "That time would be better used in studying Torah," Ford replied. "According to your interpretation," said Levine, "God would like for us to do nothing but eat, sleep, drink and study Torah." "No, God would like us to do nothing but eat, sleep and do his will. And one of the most important facets of that is studying the bible," Ford clarified. When asked for his opinion, Kernes hastened to point out that he's not a theologian. "I'm definitely not an expert on the bible, but I would raise a number of questions," Kernes said. "If God is opposed to people enjoying sexuality, why did he make it enjoyable? Sex is a very enjoyable thing that happens between two people. When they do that, they harm no one. They give each other pleasure and society does not suffer as a result." Levine said Kernes' comment raised a powerful point addressed by the next question, "Does pornography hurt anyone?" Taliesin [Will Jarvis] was the first caller-in, Taliesin, to promote, as much as anything else, the new book, Porn 101, in of which he's one of the contributors. Taliesin said he's an adherent of the The Power of the Goddess religion. "It's the oldest religion in the world," Taliesin explained. "It goes back many tens of thousands of years before Christianity. It's very positive to individual rights and sexuality." Taliesin said, under the Goddess religion, adultery isn't wrong. [Try explaining that one to some Beverly Hills divorce attorneys.] "It wouldn't be considered adultery," Taliesin explained. "We'd be open and sharing and honest. As long as it doesn't hurt anyone." "Would child pornography be okay according to the Goddess religion?" Levine asked "That would not be okay," Taliesin replied. "Children are not mature enough emotionally to give consent to certain activities." Describing Taliesin as a "colleague," Ford offered a rather elaborate viewpoint about God, transcendent thoughts, child pornography and moral anarchy. "I don't think there's anyone who can tell you who wrote the bible and who wrote the principles you claim to follow," Kernes told Ford. "What he's saying," said Levine who probably came along as Ford's translator, "is, that if there's no objective right and wrong, then adultery is not wrong, torturing children is not wrong; beating up your neighbor is not wrong." Kernes said he disagreed on the basis that he's a reasoning human being. "I can tell whether my actions are good or not good....Human beings get to make their own choices about sexuality and the key is whether those choices cause harm to another person. There are people I know who have very open marriages. They love each other deeply but don't mind if the other person has sex with someone else. Because sex is a pleasurable activity and nobody is hurt by it." One caller-in, Dr. Gary Strauss, an evangelical christian professor at Rosemead School of Psychology, said that he'd be opposed to the aforesaid single man going to a strip club. "There is a transcendent authority and God does have some very specific rules." Strauss said there's no Christian scripture that forbids going to strip clubs. "We cannot look for specified passages that deal with realities of today. We have to look at the context in which it was written and recognize there are principles that apply and have to be transferred to our current culture...in my clinical experience over the years, men who pursue pornographic experiences whether it's visual at a strip club, visual in a magazine or whether it's video or Internet, what they find is that it results in the confounding of their heart, their mind and their soul and makes it increasingly difficult to have a rewarding or fulfilling relationship with their primary loved one, namely, girlfriend or wife. That's clinical data." Characteristic of most anti-porn advocates, Strauss said he's seen "bits and pieces" of pornography but has concluded that giving himself full exposure is not in the best interests of his marriage. Nina Hartley, who said she's been in about 550 adult movies over 16 years, also added her two cents. "I'm coming to a newfound respect for personal spiritual development," Hartley said. "My parents have been Zen Buddhist priests for 25 years....as I approach my 40th birthday I think I'm coming to a place in my life where many people in their late 30's are coming to, which is, a need for something greater, a need to be part of something bigger and to start making sense of it all." Hartley said she didn't want to convert Dr. Strauss, that it would be a waste of both of their energies. Hartley said people in disagreement with Dr. Strauss can also have profound religious experiences. Hartley conceded that a person raised in a culture confused about sex might find it disconcerting being exposed to pornography. "But what I venture to offer is that the fundamental experience of spirituality, the oneness with something greater than yourself, is a universal religious experience. People who study religion or practice it are seeking that joy and ecstasy of melting into the divine or greater energy." Strauss said he would hope that Hartley's search for something more rewarding was looking beyond pornography as a primary focus of her life. Strauss asked Hartley how her life's been enhanced by her participation in pornography. "It's been enhanced tremendously," she said. "I'm a registered nurse. I do treat sexuality with the respect that it deserves. If God made us in his image and is well pleased, then I am perfectly beautiful and fine as I am; and I am a full expression of God's with my very existence. There is a profound nature of sexuality which is to give birth to the next generation and create the family that humans need to be part of. On the other hand, there is this amazing, fully functional ability of sex to transcend procreation and be part of the divine. Sexuality as an expression of love for your partner remains valuable throughout the lifespan of humans. Which makes us unique among all of God's creations. I treat sex with the respect that it deserves." Under questioning Hartley said it "was possible" that pornography can be enhancing to the religious experience. Ford agreed that, under certain circumstances, it can be "elevating". Sam Phillips also said that she considered herself a religious and spiritual person. Phillips said her father was Jewish, her mother agnostic. She was asked how she could reconcile posing naked. "When I did my centerfold, I had lines that I would not cross," she said. Levine asked Phillips if she showed her vagina. Phillips said yes. "You consider this spiritual?" he asked her. "Yes, absolutely," said Phillips. "But I was not opening myself up to a gynecological inspection. As long as I did not cross that line I felt very comfortable." Phillips said she grew up in a nudist environment where everybody was naked in her home. "Nudity was not a bad thing," she said. When asked, Phillips said she felt God was proud of her showing her vagina. "I was born naked, I'll die naked," she said. "Your mouth is an orifice. Do you cover it up when you go outside? Quite frankly, no you don't." With all due respect to Phillips, Strauss said human beings are quite capable of rationalizing anything. "But what is going on in the minds of hundreds of thousands of men who viewed those pictures and exploited those images for their own self-gratification for anything but spiritual pursuits. That to me is a significant contrast to what she personally was experiencing." "When we talk about pornography we're talking about a product that is consumed by men," Ford said. "Men view pornography to masturbate. That's what it's all about. Organized religion makes very specific demands among them demands of modesty and saving sex for marriage which would preclude posing in Penthouse." Ford said a vaguer spirituality could help you rationalize doing such things but having an organized religion with an accountable code is more important. Phillips said she has watched porn and has been given opportunities to elevate herself, namely posing in "beautiful, artistic, sensual, sexy photographs." Phillips says she has maintained her dignity and respect throughout her career. Hartley said that people who use pornography for masturbatory experiences are "stuck in the mud". "Our culture is very ambivalent about sex," she said. "It stands to reason that lots of people are unsure how they feel about it so they use sexual material in ways that are not emotionally or morally healthy. It does not mean that the material itself is not to be condemned but is to be understood."
All models were at least 18 years old at the time of their performance. 18 U.S.C. 2257 Record-Keeping Requirements Compliance Statement.
