Free Speech Coalition president Gloria Leonard and attorney Paul Cambria were interviewed by Court TV last week with their views on the decision in the Flynt obscenity case.
Nancy Grace: "Gloria Leonard is possibly one of the adult entertainment community's most visible personalities. Gloria, do you see this as a victory for adult entertainment or do you see it as a big defeat?"
Leonard: "I actually do see it as a victory, and I'm actually very pleased that Larry, and Jimmy and Paul Cambria et al., have chosen to go this route, because it still enables them to keep their business open. It still allows this material to be consumed in Hamilton County and in Cincinnati. And there are just legions of customers for adult merchandise via other sources [mail order, Internet] also. It may be the first time, I'm not absolutely sure that Larry has ever pled guilty to anything..."
June Grasso: "Gloria, Larry did not plead guilty as we heard Paul Cambria say...the corporation did, and that might have been a point. Let me ask you this, do you think the legions of Larry Flynt fans who have seen the movie, who have read his book, who have watched him as he tried to take on Congress, so to speak, do you think they'll be disappointed, that he chose to take a plea?"
Leonard: "Absolutely not. I think that Larry, along with being my hero, certainly is the hero of many other Americans who view this as just another obstacle that the government insists on putting in his way. Perhaps this will be a lesson, somehow, to the police authorities in Cincinnati that there are probably far greater priorities in terms of crime in Cincinnati that they need to address themselves to, and allow Americans to consume the sort of material that they choose to. It's part of the cultural landscape. We've come to accept it. Sex is part of life. The motto on Larry's store out here in Los Angeles is, ‘relax, it's just sex.' "
Grace: "Speaking of the legions of fans, Paul Cambria, that may or may not be disappointed based on this plea...heck, they weren't the ones facing jail time, 20 years of it; and another thing, it just seems to be, basically, a slap on the wrist. It seems as if the fans would be behind the plea."
Cambria: "I think they understand that Larry's still alive and well and that his magazine is here in Cincinnati being sold. That is clearly a goal achieved. And they realize he's ready to live to fight again another day. It's clearly not a defeat. I'm not trying to put a spin on it, but it just isn't a defeat."
Grasso: "Paul, if you had had to have a plea, say that Larry Flynt and Jimmy Flynt plead guilty to counts 7 and 12, would you have agreed to that?"
Cambria: "Never, never, never, never."
Grasso: "Why not? Explain to the viewers."
Cambria: "Number one, there's no way Larry or Jimmy would have pled guilty, personally to anything. They're made of much stronger stuff than that. They said that repeatedly. They had no problem rolling the dice. When this was offered, it was too good to be true. And I'm not trying to denigrate the prosecution, here. In a way they feel they've achieved something, and so that's fine. I'm not trying to denigrate them. But, on the other hand, I can tell you there's no way Larry or Jimmy would have personally done any kind of plea. They would rather fight it out and let the chips fall where they may."
Grace: "Paul Cambria, I want to thank you so much for joining us at Court TV. You've been fighting this fight, and the state's been fighting that for over 20 years, and I want to thank you for joining us."
Cambria: "I told Larry we can't wait another 22 years."
Grace: "If I had to put money on it, I'd predict that there will be another court fight very soon amongst you all."
Linda Kenney, a criminal and civil trial attorney in New York and New Jersey, offered these thoughts on the Flynt decision.
Grasso: "What difference does it make, personally, to Larry Flynt because his attorney just told me it would have been a deal breaker if Larry or Jimmy Flynt had had to plead guilty. What difference does it make in the long run? The money was nothing to them."
Kenney: "First of all, if they had to plead guilty, then the sentencing standards may apply to them. They could have gone to jail unless the prosecutor agreed that it be a probationary sentence. And, probably, that couldn't happen for each of them because, politically, that would not look good for the prosecutor. Also they would then have criminal convictions on their record, and criminal convictions of felonies can mean things like you don't vote, you can't get certain jobs, you can't have certain positions, and that really follows you around for your whole life. The fact that the corporation plead, was certainly the big difference."
Grasso: "To hear Larry Flynt talk about it makes sense. He's not facing any jail time. The costs of the trial are over. Hustler magazine gets to be in the stores there, but, there is a level of giving in. He put those pornographic videos in there. He's a fighter for the First Amendment. Now he's agreed to withdraw them. Do you see this as a victory for the prosecution or a victory for the defense?"
Kenney: "It's neither a victory for either. Basically it's a settlement. It's almost like a civil case, but it has advantages and disadvantages for both. For instance, for Larry Flynt, the crime of selling to a juvenile, which I know Larry said he wasn't particularly concerned with, was problematic. Because there wasn't what we call, an affirmative defense, that was allowable under the law for selling obscene materials to a juvenile. If it was harmful material, he could defend it, but not obscene. It's almost like strict liability. So that was a danger he could get convicted. For the prosecution, it's been gung-ho, gung-ho Larry Flynt, then they fell by taking a plea from the corporation that no one does any jail time. So it's neither a victory for either person."
Grasso: "I want to know if it's frightening that you agree with Alan Dershowitz on that point."
Kenney: "Any decent defense attorney, and Flynt has decent defense attorneys, knows the dangers. He then had to defend by saying look, we were entrapped in selling to this juvenile. And, while I would have gone to that defense, cause I think it's unfair to send somebody who's 6'2" who looks like he's 30 years-old to buy pornography."
Grasso: "He had, possibly, an I.D. card that was fake..."
Kenney: "By the same time, those jurors that we've heard a lot about, may not accept that. Their baggage may be we don't like pornography, Larry Flynt, and we don't care. So that's a problem."
Grasso: "Gloria Leonard, we've been talking about the impact of this. Do you think that there will be any impact or reverberations beyond this case? In the adult entertainment industry, or in any area?"
Leonard: "Well, there certainly were concerns on our side of the fence, particularly in Los Angeles. which, as you probably know, produces the lion's share of adult videos. As to what the outcome of this situation is going to be — and while I haven't had an opportunity to speak to some of my peers in the industry, I don't think this is going to have a significant impact one way or the other. I tend to agree that it really wasn't a victory for one side or the other. It's a neutral situation, and I think that people do have to form a grassroots organization of some sort. As you well know, 8 billion dollars was spent last year in America on adult materials, but yet no one wants to be the one to say that yes, I'm the one who goes into that store or subscribes to that magazine. We still have a certain amount of shame, unfortunately, about the topic of our sexuality, and I think that perhaps something like this will get people off their butts to acknowledge that this is a form of entertainment that they are consumers of, and there is nothing wrong with this."
Grasso: :"We are now joined outside the courthouse by Mike Allen, the prosecutor, who is there with Clara Tuma. Mike, we've been speaking to several people since we spoke to you last. You called it a total victory, but what we've been hearing from Alan Dershowitz and Linda Kenney and Gloria Leonard and all kinds of people is that both sides blinked, and it's a victory for neither side. It's kind of a draw. How do you respond to that?"
Allen: "I don't see it as a draw at all, and I didn't get a chance to hear those people. But it is a victory for the citizens of Hamilton County. You have to keep in mind, from the beginning, our offices stated and my predecessor stated this was a fight about keeping these type of sexually explicit videos out of Hamilton County. Mr. Flynt ran up the white flag and retreated on that. He has agreed forever and immediately, to remove those videos from his location in downtown Cincinnati and anywhere else in Hamilton County that he may choose to set up business. This is a total victory for us, and I don't know under what theory Mr. Flynt can proclaim a victory."
Grasso: "He says it's taken him 20 years to get Hustler magazine into Hamilton County, and it's there, now. And you agreed to that. That's a victory."
Allen: "We agreed to that. We agreed that he would remove the videos. Hustler magazine is something that we can possibly look at somewhere down the road."
Grasso: "Stop one second. Are you telling me that you're still thinking of prosecuting him, bringing charges for the Hustler magazine being in his store?"
Allen: "Our office has been the same for many, many, many years. If law enforcement, or a citizen, brings to our office or brings to our attention, information regarding the commission of a criminal offense, be it obscenity or whatever, we'll take a look at it. If it's something that we deem appropriate to bring before the grand jury, we'll do that."
Grasso: "But are you going to send another child or teenager into the store to buy Hustler magazine and bring charges in somewhat of a sting operation or what some are calling entrapment? Are you the Hamilton County prosecutor going to go in and actively try and prosecute Larry and Jimmy Flynt again for Hustler magazine?"
Allen: "The answer to that question is no. But you say some, I guess, on the defense side may call it entrapment. Others on our side call it legitimate practice."
Grasso: "You use this 14 year-old boy in some, odd, 50 operations. and had him going in buying cigarettes and alcohol. And he apparently doesn't look like a 14 year-old boy. He looks like an adult. There's a question as to whether or not he had fake I.D., so it does sound something of an entrapment situation, or certainly undercover operation. Would you buy that?"
Allen: "If it were entrapment, I'm sure that Mr. Flynt's defense team, which is an incredibly competent defense team, would have raised that issue. I don't think that they did. But let me say this. We were not satisfied with the way that that particular witness' credibility was compromised in this case. I'll be honest. That became a problem because of some of the other things he was used for. All of these things factor into a decision whether to accept a plea bargain or not. I'll admit that. There were problems with that."
Kenney: "Isn't there some problem in using a boy who's 14 in so many sting operations? And do you consider taking any action against the police or establishing regulations. Because isn't it, in itself, harmful to use a child to go in and buy this pornography over and over and over?"
Allen: "In the first count, in the first situation, he went in there by himself without any police prompting. The second and third times it was by police. So police didn't so it on the first time out. Again, it's legitimate police procedure to operate in this fashion. Do you have to be careful with it? Absolutely. Do there have to be safeguards? Yes. I'm planning on taking no action whatsoever against the police division. Are we happy that they decided to use this individual on subsequent cases with respect to liquor purchases?: No, we're not. That was a problem in the case, and I think we've acknowledged that from the beginning."
Kenney: "In something like this, do you have to get permission from the child's parents to do that?"
Allen: "I don't think you legally have to. It would probably be wise practice to do that. I don't think there's a legal requirement that you do it, though."
Grasso: "Who initiated this plea deal? Both sides are pointing this way, the opposite direction. Who initiated this plea deal? It couldn't have come up out of thin air?"
Allen: Here's the situation as related to me by my staff. I was not involved in the negotiations until very early this morning. My staff told me that yesterday they were approached by a member of the defense team. about possibly entering into a negotiated plea situation. Let me agree completely with Mr. Cambria when he pointed out that the prosecution willingly entered into these negotiations. We did. No question about it. My staff tells me that they were approached by a member of Mr. Flynt's defense team. But let me say this. I don't really want to quibble about it because their defense team are men of honor and they conducted themselves with the utmost professionalism. I don't really want to have to degenerate into a fight like that. Again, I wasn't personally approached. My staff tells me they were approached by a member of Mr. Flynt's defense team."
Grasso: "Gloria Leonard, before we let you go, and want to know if you have any final thoughts on how this is going to play out?"
Leonard: "This is sort of interesting. This morning something was brought to my attention about an obscenity trial held back in the 1950's. It had to do with what was then considered a nudist magazine. The description of the woman who appeared in the pages of the magazine was described as being vile and grotesque because she had rather unusual pubic hair. So I guess we have to be thankful for at least some small steps, because what was considered obscene 30 or 40 years ago, certainly we have made some strides. The Free Speech Coalition which is the organization that I'm president of, tries very hard to maintain a standard and level of excellence of the adult products that are put out. Of course, I'm not sitting here to whitewash this industry. There's a lot of stuff out there that I'm not fond of, either. But for the most part I see this as being another chink, unfortunately, in Larry Flynt's armor. And I'm sure there will be many more fights along the way. I'm very pleased to see the turnout of people who are supporting him, and I'm certainly one of them."
