To get some insight into the quickly changing market of videos featuring black performers and catering to black audiences, we invited an assortment of successful, smart, and savvy producers/performers to discuss their work and where they feel the industry is heading. Our roundtable conversation took place at the AVN offices with our own Anne Bateman, and included Jake Steed, India, Cinnabunz, Sean Michaels, and Mr. Marcus. Via speakerphone from Chicago, Midori took some time out from her hectic dance schedule to talk with us. Helping keep the discussion lively, Christian Mann, whose Video Team "Afro-Centric" line has demonstrated a commitment to the black market, showed up to ask questions and provide input.
Anne Bateman: Hi, welcome, glad you could make it. I'd like to start by asking everybody for a brief introduction: Tell me what your involvement is in the industry.
Midori: When I first got in, the reason I wanted to go full-force in the adult market is because I thought there was a lack of African-American people, women especially, being promoted in the same way as my blond counterparts. It baffled my mind and it pissed me off, so I did everything I could do to make it where a black woman was able to be on the same level, so to speak, within this business. I've been in the business four years, and I've seen a lot of changes.
AB: Mr. Marcus, what has your involvement in the industry consisted of?
Mr. Marcus: Just fucking.
India: [giggle]
MM: I didn't get into it for political reasons or anything like that; I'm just really geared towards women. I've directed a couple of features, two of the Nastys for Video Team. The first movie I ever directed, Chris Mann gave me the opportunity. Baby Got Back 7. I directed for Metro, Caballero, Vivid; done a lot of different stuff, nothing groundbreaking.
AB: What about your series, Mr. Marcus' Neighborhood?
MM: Yeah -
M: Marcus! Can I interrupt? I just want to say that you don't give yourself enough credit. You say you haven't been a groundbreaker; that's bullshit! You're one of the first black directors to have done so much, and I don't think you give yourself enough credit.
MM: I give the credit to Sean Michaels. I look at him and Ron Hightower. Those are predecessors, those are people who knocked on the door and someone answered. I just followed. I've always just followed. If I've done anything, it's as a performer. I'm so passionate. When it's good, it's good for me.
The next step is definitely to own, create, and distribute the stuff you're doing; that's what Jake is doing. Like Sean Michaels is doing. It's hard, and they can probably attest to that. If I want to continue in this business, I can't continuously put product out for other people, when I could be doing it for myself.
AB: India?
I: I've been in this business about a year, a year and a half, and I came in for the money at first. Once I got to see who was in the biz and how it worked, I kind of liked it and I saw that there was a lack of black talent. I wanted to come to the business to take over and do something positive, whether it be to start my own line, or just basically making a good name for myself when I leave.
AB: What have you done?
I: Just staying away from a lot of [the] negative. Stuff like, Dirty Black Bitch, or Yo Bitch Get On the Bus. For me, as a black woman, it's hard enough to get respect, and I wanted that respect, so I wanted to come to the business to show that every girl is not a ho, and every girl is not stupid. We have minds, we have thoughts, and we can come here and dominate and take over and be just as good as the blond girl, the girl with the blue eyes. It's really not a racial thing, but gets made to be a racial thing. So it is a racial thing.
AB: Jake, what are you doing now?
Jake Steed: Let me just add to what India said. Years ago there were a couple of big directors, guys that have probably been on the cover of AVN, who said, "Nobody wants to see that shit. Nobody wants to see black girls, it just won't sell." Chris started the publicity, but I think the first person to do it successfully was Ed Powers. We had something called Black Dirty Debutantes, and almost every black man in America watched those movies, and they sold as much, as well as his other videos, which were all top sellers. Then the same people who denied any kind of work or respect as far as black talent jumped on the bandwagon. What you see is a bunch of white guys trying to commercialize the new untapped market of blacks, and the blacks don't have any power to capitalize on it, 'cause they've been so broke, trying to survive, trying to get work. Now that the black market's open, all the companies (no offense to Chris, he's one of the first ones to do it) that are doing black movies are all white. They're just commercializing it. All these places cannot duplicate a black experience. They can try to commercialize as much as they can, but I see that in the future: What's going to happen is that the consumers who watch my movies are going to say, "Hey, this is real, we want something from our perspective, not something commercialized and we don't want to support a company that's pretending to be black that's not really black." I think performers like Sean are going to have to support that too. They've been taking cuts on their rates just to survive, 'cause there's no work. 10 percent of the work is black, and that's now. Go back three-four years ago, and maybe three percent, four percent were black.
M: And it's not only in the movies, I feel it's that way on the dance circuit.
Christian Mann: I have a question for Jake. You were talking before about the need for the audience to respond to movies made by black people for black people. Do you think that's material to the issue of distribution? How important do you think it is to have black-owned distribution? I've given lots of black directors work, but I just want to know how you feel that plays.
JS: If Sean were here, I'm sure he'd agree that distribution in the key point. Once you have a foundation, you can branch off. You can start by directing "black movies" and then you can direct white movies. It's not that a black man can't direct white movies. There's nothing special to it.... What I'm saying is that the blacks in America know what it's like to deal with racism. They've grown up with it. They want something that's from someone who's suffered like they've suffered, who's in their corner. They're willing to support that. They don't like to buy a movie that they know was constructed by some people who are just exploiting them. If you get the distribution, the people will support you as much as they can. A lot of people out there want to support Sean, a lot want to support Marcus. They know who they are. The problem is that there are so little resources that how are they going to get the money within the business because there's no money to be made if you're black. It's difficult, you have to really hustle. No one just says, "Hey, do you want a line?" Very rarely does that happen.
CM: Do you think it's harder if you're a black guy with no money than if you're a white guy with no money?
JS: Of course it's harder. There're white guys that have been in the business six months who already have their own lines for VCA. Mr. Marcus is the only one who's ever done that, and he came at a good time.
AB: Midori sounds like she's been trying to say something for awhile.
M: Back to something India said, and I think Jake was commenting on it also: I think that timing played a big part - I can only speak for myself and my career and what I've done within the last couple of years - and I think I came in at a perfect time when there weren't any glamour-type, model-looking black women and the market was opening up for more ethnic product. I also know it took determination and wanting to knock on people's doors. Like the AVN Awards situation - nobody asked me to be a trophy girl. I found out who the people were, I kept bugging Christian about it. I had to make the phone call to Mark Stone to be the trophy girl that year and I proved myself, in a way I shouldn't have had to, but I had to. The next year, I did the band thing, I closed the show, and then the next year, I was able to co-host.
JS: We can't get to the point where we say, "I made it, therefore everybody else can." That's like, Bill Cosby attitude. You have to be pro-black.
M: I am pro-black!
JS: Racism is so rampant in the industry, it has to be addressed, and it's not a lie. Just because one or two people make it, like I made it - I made it because I was lucky and talented, to persist, persist, persist; but it doesn't have to be that way. Why is it that new guys come to work and...
M: Because it's a white-dominated world! We all know that it's difficult and it's hard and we have to get our hustle on it, and I'm lucky to have the things happen to me that have happened, but I've also had to work really hard, and I'm still working hard at it now with the dance market, and there are clubs that still will not book me, because I'm black. It doesn't matter how many awards I've won, doesn't matter how many box covers, magazine covers I've been on. It's because I'm fucking black.
JS: Exactly.
M: And I swear, when my record comes out, if these clubs still do not book me, I'm gonna call the ACLU and the NAACP.
I: [laughs]
M: It's illegal.
AB: What is the audience for tapes: both interracial, black done by blacks, and this whole genre of black tapes made by white people?
JS: I think 90 percent of them are black and 10 percent are white who have black fetishes.
M: From my experiences, I would say... well... I know that the majority of my fans are white and I think that's because I don't fit the stereotype of what a black woman is supposed to be. I've got a lot of black fans, but in my case, I would have to say it's 60/40 white.
CM: India?
I: I agree with Jake, I'd have to say it was more black guys. I go into a lot of video stores, and I see a lot of people.
AB: Mr. Marcus, what about your fan base? Do you have any clue?
MM: It's definitely black, and I judge by this: When I'm on the street, I'm recognized by blacks. It's not a bunch of white guys; it's always minorities - Mexicans and blacks. CM: I would think Sean Michaels gets recognized by a lot more white people than Jake or Marcus.
AB: But Jake's in all those Ed Powers movies that I would think have a white audience.
JS: You would think that the Ed Powers movies are like that, but like I said before, he broke ground with the black stuff. His Black Dirty Debs. I did a scene for that with Janet Jacme, one scene, and more people have probably seen that scene than if I done 300 movies. People watch that.
AB: How did you ever break into the regular Dirty Debutantes?
JS: Me and Ed Powers are friends, so...
AB: Was it a racial issue?
JS: No, because Ed Powers is not prejudiced. He's one of the few who is not prejudiced.
AB: What about in terms of the audience and the women you're working with?
JS: He used to help convince the girls, persuade them, to make an exception and to work with a nice black guy. The business doesn't do that. When a new girl comes into the industry, they say, "Oh, don't work with black guys, it'll ruin your image." The same girl I work with with Ed Powers don't even wanna look at me the next week.
MM: I don't know how you're going to take this, Jake, but a lot of white girls don't judge you as black... they'll make an exception for you...
JS: That's bullshit, Marcus. That's the biggest bullshit. Every time I hear any performer say that, it's the biggest joke I ever heard. He's trying to say that because I'm light-skinned, that I can cross over. That's not true. Let me make this clear. I have never, ever, in my entire career, worked with a girl who worked with me who wouldn't work with Sean. There are girls who Sean has worked with who turn around and say, "I don't do blacks." That's the truth, I've seen that many times. Any girl who works with me, believe me, they consider me black - whether they see the dick, or people tell them I'm black. Once they work with me, they'll work with you and Sean, a d.p. next week! I've never been able to cross over. The only reason I've been able to cross through, on a few VCA movies, is because I have friends, and because my performance abilities are strong.
MM: You had the lead in a Gregory Dark's Psycho Sexuals. A black man carried a movie!
JS: But you know what? At the end of the script, I found out why I got that part. At the end, I turn into a girl, and the girl's black - it was his girlfriend or some shit. So that's how I got the part. She was light-skinned. I've never gotten a lead role, I've never crossed over.
CM: I have a marketing question. To hopefully end the issue of discrimination...
AB: I don't think the issue of discrimination is ever going to end...
I: It's always going to be there.
CM: How do you feel about the fact that, at least in 1999 and for the last five, six years, that the marketing of black movies is segregated and different, that there is such a thing as "black movies." The marketing is so racial that if you have Asians in a movie it's suddenly called Chop Suey This-or-That. How do you feel about that versus the ideal colorblind world?
M: You don't need to put a title like "Black This and Yo That," 'cause that's leaning more towards segregating it.
CM: Right. How do you feel about the fact that, when the marketing is so segregated, it gives you, the black talent, more work? Do you say, "Why not just be colorblind?"
MM: I think in the future of black video, we're gong to be in competition with Video Team and Heatwave. We'll create our own little entity, our own little power. We can give Video Team a run for their money, I think that's basically what the future holds...
JS: They used to say that no one wants to see blacks, they don't sell, no one wants to see black girls, they're ugly. Now they're realizing that they were wrong, someone tried it and it worked, so now everybody's jumping on the bandwagon. It's all white guys jumping on the bandwagon. The key to the future is guys like myself and Sean who make better product and outdo the white guys who are trying to make black movies, put them back where they belong, doing their own thing. In the future, I see guys like myself and Marcus and Sean monopolizing the black market and driving the white guys who are making money off of it onto different ground. Once the fans realize that the blacks are trying to do their thing and are being held down, they're not going to support that - they're going to support the new guys, guys like Marcus, guys like Sean, guys like me. I think the market's going to change.
M: There's a female involved with that, too, you know.
JS: Okay.
M: Which is me!
JS: That's the way things are. Blacks like their own thing.
AB: Do you think that's true, Midori?
M: Yeah, but I have mixed feelings on that. I have such a great white fan base, and I can't limit myself. I have a wide array of fans: black, Hispanic, white, and Asian. I meet these people when I go out and dance. Sometimes I get confused, because I'm black and I have a cause I'm trying to support, which is me being pro-black and trying to do great things and show that we are capable of doing it and we can make a lot of money and get a lot of prestige from it. At the same time, I don't want to alienate all the other people that support me, who are of different races. I guess I'm a lot like Sean, I don't want to have any color lines.
JS: I disagree. I have color lines. I don't like what the whites have done to the blacks in this industry. I'm on the black side, I'm pro-black, and as far as blacks are concerned, if you're not pro-black, you need to stand back.
CM: How do you feel about white-owned companies that are hiring black directors? For instance, you've directed for Video Team, Marcus has directed for Video Team. How do you feel about that product?
JS: The stipulations that were put on the movie were so strict that it wasn't really a true black product. As long as a black man is working for a white man, making him money off his own race, that's bad. It's going to have to come to the point where distributors are going to have to support their own people, that's how it's going to go. It can't work any other way.
CM: I wanted to get back to what Jake said about how the black man in this business has been misrepresented by the white man, shown in a certain way, and I feel that if they know what they're doing, what does it matter. On the white side, they have White Trash Whore. It's degrading on both sides...
M: You've got, on one hand, White Trash Whore and Trailer Park Sluts, but you also see Vivid billboards and VCA billboards...
CM: Do you ever see a black girl on a Vivid billboard?
[laughter]
MM: They get left out of a lot of shit...
CM: You're not saying you don't see black girls on Vivid billboards, you're saying that while you see the denigration of women in pornography on the white side, there's also the very uplifting thing like billboards in white video that you don't necessarily see in black video. Is there any product you find uplifting for black video?
M: No there isn't. If it weren't for you, with the whole glamour image of black women, there probably wouldn't be.
AB: Do you think the quality of black video has gone up?
JS: Yes, once there was supply and demand, you can't just make those cheap Heatwave videos anymore. You have to spend a little more money, use prettier girls like India, then you'll sell more and stand above the rest of the black movies.
CM: Midori, we've talked before about the heyday of porn, when films were big budget for theatrical release, the late '70s and very early '80s. Black talent appeared in movies that didn't have a race issue. Maybe the scene they were in played the race card, but there wasn't such a thing as "black movies"; they were just "porno movies." Would you like to see a return to that?
MM: You know the first movie I saw with a black guy in it? It was Jack Baker in an all-white movie, and he jacked off into a salad.
[laughter]
MM: I was just like, why is a black man in there jacking off into a salad?
JS: 'Cause no white girl's going to work with him...
MM: Jake says he's done well because he's talented, fortunate, and lucky. I'm talented and damn lucky. I got to do 101 women...
M: Yeah, and how was that advertised?
CM: What was the title?
MM: It was World's Luckiest Black Man.
[laughter]
MM: And I had all the black guys saying, "Wait, I thought I was the world's luckiest black man!"
CM: How do you feel when you turn on the WB and see these TV shows that have this all-black world, created specifically for black people?
JS: We can dream, can't we?
M: Christian! It's the same thing you did to me last year, when I wanted to do that interracial scene, and you kept saying, "No, I'm doing black movies." That's how I ended up working with Marcus so much! Why? Why did you do the marketing that way?
JS: Because Chris has probably realized that the black market would rather see black-on-black.
MM: In cable markets, they wanted to see the white guy fucking the black girl, but they wouldn't accept a black guy fucking a white girl.
AB: Is that true now?
MM: It's not true now. I've worked with Juli Ashton, and Lexus. They're showing 101 on cable.
CM: The rule used to be "no black guys having sex with white women." The theory was because of viewers in the deep South that still maintain those kinds of prejudices, and "we don't want to offend our viewership." That's a very old, very racist, deep South-thing. So a lot of videos didn't want to show that kind of scene - black man, white woman - because they didn't want to lose the cable sale. Video Team came along and broke that barrier with the help of the Adam & Eve Channel, who did it first, then Playboy TV, then the Spice Channel. Now they actually request all-black product. And what they found is that the complaints that they were expecting, David Duke KKK guys calling to cancel their cable, it just didn't happen. It was a perceived taboo. It's not that the market didn't want it, it was that the cable companies were afraid to show it.
Things are changing. The last two years at CES, for example, you've seen a booth that was clearly dedicated to creating a presence for the major black talent. I'm talking obviously, again, this is subjective, about my booth, the Afro-Centric booth. Do you think that's a positive thing or do you think it still doesn't matter because it's white-owned? Which is something I, obviously, won't be able to change.
I: Personally, I think it's a positive thing.
M: I have a problem with the wording "Afro-Centric." You don't have to put a label on it. When people walk by and they see a bunch of black girls, it speaks for itself. To have a label on top of it segregates it even more. You don't have to do that. I'm a big believer that a black face on the box speaks for itself. You don't have to add the extra stuff on top of it.
AB: Can you identify a specifically black aesthetic, aside from skin color? Can you talk about anything specific?
CM: The verbiage.
AB: The language, but that's not the sex, that's not what people are watching pornography for.
CM: Well, I don't think there's a difference between black sex and white sex. You're still talking about fucking and sucking.
I: Basically.
JS: We're getting into a gray area...
AB: You're saying that the accessories which surround the sex in your tapes are what make it specifically black?
JS: It's not just black, 'cause there's other black stuff out there. Basically, it's that my movies are so good, if you watch as a fan, you won't want to watch anything else.
CM: Do you think that white guys who like black women have a different taste in what women should be shaped like?
JS: Yes, you know that and I know that. That's why India can cross over perfectly! Black men are attracted to different types of women on average. Most black men like thicker women, more voluptuous women. White guys get scared when they see a thick woman.
Take a girl like Janet Jacme, who's probably one of the favorite girls within the black community. The white guys didn't even like her, they thought her ass was too big! She didn't get that much work. She got low-budget, low-end work and she got kicked out of the business. And people worshipped this girl!
M: In the black race, we have our own racism. You can't just generalize about the black product. Me, for instance, I have my homeboy fans, your middle class executive guys and they enjoy a different kind of movies. They're not going for the "Bootylicious Hos" movies. they going for My Baby Got Back or interracial. In my career, I'm pro-black, like I said, but I've got this other heavy fan base. AB: We have two latecomers to the discussion, so let's find out a little about what they're doing within the industry.
Sean Michaels: This year I started my own distribution company and I'm happy to say that we're doing quite well. We're a black-owned company, and it's been a long time coming. Because of people like Christian and others who have been behind me since I've started in this industry, I've been able to achieve something that not many people of color or ethnicity have been able to in this industry - or in any industry in America. Specifically what I do are interracial videos, as opposed to all-white, all-Asian, all-Hispanic... I don't feel there should be division.
Cinnabunz: Hello. I'm Cinnabunz, I'm glad to be here. Right now I'm working independently.
AB: I was wondering if the women could talk about body image and plastic surgery, and whether you think that's as prevalent in "ethnic" videos as it is in white videos, where everyone's a plastic cookie-cutter copy of each other.
C: I've had a lot of friends who would tell me not to do it, but at the same time they would do a double take to the double-F girls. They want you to stay natural and sexy the way you are, and to not let the business change you into something that you're not. I feel I was sexy before I started in the porno business and it was just up to the porno business to realize it.
AB: Do you think there's a lot of pressure?
C: It's up to the women and how they feel about their own bodies and how they want to be portrayed. If you want to be portrayed as a ho-bitch-slut with guacamole coming out of your ass, then that's your business. But if you want to be a beautiful, intelligent female, you could have on a bikini or spike heels - it's all in the way you portray yourself. You don't have to sell yourself out to be known, and that includes plastic surgery.
M: Generally speaking, as black women we're more comfortable with our bodies the way they are than white women are.
MM: That's 'cause black women have better bodies anyway!
I: I just feel to each his own.
CM: The thing that was on 20/20 the other night - they did a pretty extensive survey and what they found is that only 10 percent of white women are satisfied with their bodies, while 60-70 percent of black women are satisfied with their bodies; even though the black women had a wider array of body types. There were black women who weighed 180 pounds saying, "Hey, I am as sexy as I am." They were suggesting that there's a decided difference between black women's self images and white women's self images. You don't have a lot of black anorexics or bulimics.
M: I used to be bulimic!
CM: Always the exception to the rule.
M: I had personal problems when I was younger... and the only way I could vent was to throw up!
I: All right, enough information!
M: No, seriously, and maybe India can comment on this too. I would think more black guys would be into someone who looks like Cinnabunz, more so than me or India - what do you think?
JS: That's true. Do you how many guys I've seen on the street who have asked for you, Cinnabunz?
C: There are guys who ask for you too, India, down South, especially!
MM: I don't know. I talk to a lot of guys who are still stuck on the old girls, like Anna Amore.
M: In the late '80s, there were a lot of girls with the same body type, like Persia, Toy, Champagne. The new image is like girls like me and India and Dee.
JS: But back then, that's all they had. Anyone who was black would just fill that role. Now they've got more girls.
CM: You don't see a huge demand in white product for girls shaped like Cinnabunz, the full-figured, voluptuous girl.
M: They all like Nina Hartley.
JS: The brothers like Nina Hartley the most, out of all the white girls!
M: Nina Hartley, Shanna McCullough, Tiffany Mynx.
MM: Brothers like booty.
JS: They just love ass, they do. There's definitely a difference between the two races as far as thickness goes, you can't deny that.
CM: I've made a living at Video Team on it. I encourage this discussion, even though much of it doesn't go my way. I feel a lot of backlash against my company simply because it's a white-owned and -operated company. There's nothing I can do about my personal racial makeup and I don't intend to stop making black videos, because I love the genre and I love the work and I love the marketing. I enjoy it.
I: And the money!
CM: And I don't mind the money, but I was making money before I was making black video.
M: You will never understand it, though, because you're not black.
CM: You mean according to you, or according to Jake?
M: You and I have been in discussions before about this. White people will never understand what we have to go through. I know this is a little outside what we're talking about, but when I go shopping in Beverly Hills, I'm being watched all over the store and I have a platinum card! You will never understand what we have to go through.
CM: You're right, I will never understand the experience of the black man, because I'm not black. But since I'm not black, that doesn't mean I should get out of the business of making black movies. In that regard, I have to disagree with Jake. And, despite my status as a white man, I think I've done a lot for black video. But, where I have to totally agree with Jake is that there is a difference in taste between white consumers of pornography and black consumers of pornography. Black men, on the average, like women with bigger bodies. It's not always true, of course. If it were, India wouldn't be making a living. India's just beautiful regardless of what kind of body she has. So is Midori. I've had people write me letters that say, "You know those girls you put on the last My Baby Got Back? They were all fine, but where's the butt?"
I: I know I don't have a big butt...
AB: Sean, can you talk a bit about how you were able to start your own distribution and video line and what you think of this whole issue: Can a white man make black video?
SM: I think if you're talented enough, and I'm speaking from an artistic standpoint, then you should do whatever the hell you want to do. It shouldn't matter what color you are. And that's my theory behind what I do. People could say the same thing about me, and they probably do. "Sean Michaels loves white women." So what? I love all women and that's why I'm good at what I do and I've been successful at what I do. I dare not to stipulate that I am the best at what I do because I'm black.
JS: I brought up the point of the white man exploiting the black market, commercializing, putting girls with flat asses on My Baby Got Back.
M/I: [laughter]
JS: I'm just against exploitation. As a black performer, anyone at this table knows what it's like to try to get booked on a VCA movie.
C: And when you do it, you get a cut rate.
JS: A cut rate, and the last scene of the day, with somebody ugly.
CM: Do you think that ultimately the consumer cares if it's from your company, a black-owned company, or from my company, if it's the same exact product?
JS: Hell yeah, they care. Chris, I bet you a lot of money that if you were to put your face, your picture, "Creator of My Baby's Got Back" on the box cover, like this "I'm with you homeys," you'd be done...
AB: How do you feel about that, Sean?
SM: I agree with Jake. That's like, for instance, the FUBU line, a black-owned clothing company vs. Calvin Klein or Tommy Hilfiger. I support FUBU because it's something we need to support as black entrepreneurs.
MM: Blacks are always watching other blacks. We do that. The minute I put my name on a tape as "directed by" I get letters - "I'm so glad to see you directing." Fuck the movie, you directed it, that's what they're happy about. They want to see you come up.
SM: Back to Christian's question, about if we have trouble with distribution. Actually, people have opened their arms to me, saying, "Finally I can get your product directly from you." They want to come to me specifically now because they've got love for me and, for lack of a better term, "black love." They want to see me, as a black man, do well, because they know how long I've been working in this industry for other people, and whether they're Asian or white or whatever, they just want to see me get mine.
AB: Perhaps that's similar to what happens with women directors. Someone might want to see a tape specifically because it was directed by a woman, whatever it is. It's a political decision. How much has your distribution company released?
SM: We just released our first movie last month, and we also have an ethnic line, Ebony Erotica, and most people will think, "That's Sean trying to put his input
